On how controversial Reagan-era writer predicted the anti-trans, anti-immigrant Trumpian world we live in today; in an era when equal rights for women and lesbians were the arch-enemy
Interesting article, Jo. I think you are onto something with right-wing women's aversion to feminism being rooted in a deep-seated need to navigate and survive within a male-dominated society--essentially prioritizing security over personal freedom.
I saw white men with their Asian girlfriends in SE Asia and these men are repulsive. They are angry at the feminist movement and date these Asian women because of their stereotypes. Some are with the shit and others figure it out and run. The fetishization of Asian women is disgusting.
I live in San Francisco; it's a trope here (that white software engineers date Asian-American women)....which is why I included it in my essay. I also advocate for survivors...and most of the assaulters I know about are white men assaulting Asian women - which, given the stereotype of "submissiveness" - you get it, I'm sure.
βUglyβ is right up there with βfatβ but ugly is more often associated with witches, crones (sexually useless or independent) wisdom whereas fat signals not small enough to be dominated easily (sexually and socially useless).
Yes, there are a bunch of different ways we can separate out "ugly", fat as you mentioned, and also of color, Dworkin mentioned stereotypes of Black and Jewish women, but I'd include stereotypes of Latina, Asian, Middle Eastern/Arab, or too educated, or too loud... all sorts of other qualities that fall under "ugly".
Thank you for another thoughtful article! I had a friend a long time ago who literally said to me, βyeah, I play dumb a lot.β She was not dumb, but she - correctly- reasoned sheβd have a greater chance to succeed by conforming to a bland white patriarchy than by relying on her own talents and hard work. And she did succeed, in marrying a successful white man and having kids, which is what she wanted.
Also, re: Usha - I once read an article about JD Vance met his wife. He described her as a genetic anomaly - beautiful, smart, hardworking. Soo gross. Imagine having a romantic partner describe you as that. Because Usha is not white, she could not rely only on her good looks to succeed. But have they ever had that conversation? Probably not.
This is a conversation Iβve had (the dumbing myself down to make men comfortable) AND another conversation Iβve had and know there are stats to support it is that Asian American women (East, South, South East, etc) often seek out white men and white communities to be adjacent to that privilege.
Usha also stayed with Vance even though he defended a DOGE worker who posted about βnormalizing Indian hateβ. Which includes her, and their children.
I think itβs a risky bet to make - to give up everything for a white spouse. If they divorce you, then what are you left with?
We read Dworkin in college, and Susan Moller Okin. Iβm not sure what wave of feminism I belong to. I couldnβt wear pants to school in 3d grade. In Oregon.
Thank you for this! I too was previously wary of Dworkin for the same reasons youβve mentioned but as I get older and grapple with the failings of the third wave I found myself more and more drawn to her. Iβll definitely be looking for a copy of Right Wing Women next time Iβm in a bookshop.
Jo that was a horrible way for women you knew to respond to rape. When my h and I were dating I knew that when I disclosed the sexual abuse I experienced (which included rape), his reaction world determine if we had a future together. If he had responded in any way like those women he would have been gone. I learned that the hard way in my previous relationship. And yes re trans people. Thank you for your long post.
Something I've noticed is how the previous stereotype of conservative women which used to be very modest, covered up with minimal makeup has now shifted to something extremely feminine coded, pink, more revealing, a lot more makeup etc. It's something I struggle to wrap my head around because when I was a kid, that was more liberal coded.
Yes, because i think in the 90s and 2000s, conservative make up and clothes = conservative politics. Old money, Christian fundamentalism, Bush wives...
I grew in the bay area, and women here are dress more conservatively (little make up, conservative clothes, almost no one wears heels - for one, there are a lot of hills in San Francisco, and people walk a lot more). I can easily tell who the tourists or new in town are...
That is an interesting shift and more so because a number of religious groups still have the modesty rules yet that doesn't get in the way of this shift.
it's strange, that the religious right here in the US is so enthusiastic about a leader who is openly materialistic, has affairs, has been found liable for sexual abuse...
So many thoughts inspired by your article, but Iβm heading out for the day. Suffice it to say- thank you very much for your work and Iβm looking forward to reading more!
They think he is an instrument of God and it shows how God can can use anyone however imperfect and they themselves are sinners who can yet do God's work.
Phenomenal. I just ordered all these books. I got divorced when I was 30. Your analysis resonates with my experience: only after I was divorced did my colleague start sexually harassing me.
I've been a sexual assault survivor advocate for about eight years, that observation is based on the reading but what I've seen through my advocacy/work too.
Ooh yesβ¦Iβve always been in the βbad rapβ camp for Dworkin. Gayle Rubinβs side of the sex wars always made a lot more sense to me. But your article here shows Dworkinβs strengths and lasting significance. Thinking through her ideas now is oddly cathartic! Likeβ¦fuck. It shouldnβt be. But it is!
I also read Dworkin's 'Woman Hating', which gets into the sex wars side. I personally didn't care for it nearly as much as I did 'Right Wing Women', which is about her stance on feminism. So I guess what I'm advocating for in this piece and the one before it to read Dworkin on feminism, and not on sexuality or pornography.
I think it is remarkable in that Dworkin was able to stand firm on her stance and yet have so much empathy for right wing/conservative women. Same for her fellow anti-pornography colleague, Catharine MacKinnon, who is perhaps the single greatest force on our legal thinking of sexual harassment.
I'm not a huge fan of Gayle Rubin (esp. around 'child porn panic') or the sex positivity movement - not that I think we should be 'sex negative' or anything! I just think that the sex+ movement isn't very honest with or about itself (and I live in San Francisco, which I feel is a big center for the movement).
Rubin definitely goes too far in the other direction! I just think she does an amazing job predicting some of the philosophical moves of queer theory by critiquing both second wave feminists and THE POPE in the same breath. Likeβ¦that was so visionary! And made so much sense. But yes. Youβre right. The stuff about nambla was super gross. I think it was rhetorical mostly, but at what cost??
Yes, I think that the earlier gay/lesbian movement in the era of Rubin, Harvey Milk, et al went really wrong with the defense of nambla/child porn, and the like. We (the broader LGBTQI+ spectrum) still have the "groomer" rhetoric to fight against, and I think that fight is a lot tougher for us because of that enormous misstep.
To say nothing about her position on smbd. As if there isnβt enough pain in the world. But women should have the absolute right as adults to follow their desires and take full responsibility for them.
Thank you. Interesting β read β. Different perspective. There is much in your article that I never understoodβ safety from rapeβ¦.. How much pro birth factors into right wing ideology. Thanks again.
Hi. There is so little we know about β anything β in life and we will not experience as much as we think we have. This is why we must read about the experiences of others. I found β balcony incident β as a cautionary tale for anyone who finds themselves with people who do not agree with them. Also explains why there are female branches of white nationalists organization. People think women naturally kindβbig mistake. Keep writing. Stories have value.
I label them as the patriarchal women: women who support the patriarchy and male domination. My twenty something niece calls them βthe pick meβ women.
Both are true, but this women also includes more than just the "pick me" women - a lot of women opt for safety by aligning themselves with a male partner.
Interesting article, Jo. I think you are onto something with right-wing women's aversion to feminism being rooted in a deep-seated need to navigate and survive within a male-dominated society--essentially prioritizing security over personal freedom.
Yes, exactly.
Thank you so much for reading!
This was thoughtfully written and you brilliantly wove together so many insightful socio-political plus historical threads. Thanks Jo!
I'm so glad you liked it!
And thank you so much for reading it all - I know it was a long piece, but I really wanted to get all of those threads and insights in there.
I saw white men with their Asian girlfriends in SE Asia and these men are repulsive. They are angry at the feminist movement and date these Asian women because of their stereotypes. Some are with the shit and others figure it out and run. The fetishization of Asian women is disgusting.
I live in San Francisco; it's a trope here (that white software engineers date Asian-American women)....which is why I included it in my essay. I also advocate for survivors...and most of the assaulters I know about are white men assaulting Asian women - which, given the stereotype of "submissiveness" - you get it, I'm sure.
I used to live in the Bay Area and saw it too. π
βUglyβ is right up there with βfatβ but ugly is more often associated with witches, crones (sexually useless or independent) wisdom whereas fat signals not small enough to be dominated easily (sexually and socially useless).
Yes, there are a bunch of different ways we can separate out "ugly", fat as you mentioned, and also of color, Dworkin mentioned stereotypes of Black and Jewish women, but I'd include stereotypes of Latina, Asian, Middle Eastern/Arab, or too educated, or too loud... all sorts of other qualities that fall under "ugly".
Thank you for another thoughtful article! I had a friend a long time ago who literally said to me, βyeah, I play dumb a lot.β She was not dumb, but she - correctly- reasoned sheβd have a greater chance to succeed by conforming to a bland white patriarchy than by relying on her own talents and hard work. And she did succeed, in marrying a successful white man and having kids, which is what she wanted.
Also, re: Usha - I once read an article about JD Vance met his wife. He described her as a genetic anomaly - beautiful, smart, hardworking. Soo gross. Imagine having a romantic partner describe you as that. Because Usha is not white, she could not rely only on her good looks to succeed. But have they ever had that conversation? Probably not.
This is a conversation Iβve had (the dumbing myself down to make men comfortable) AND another conversation Iβve had and know there are stats to support it is that Asian American women (East, South, South East, etc) often seek out white men and white communities to be adjacent to that privilege.
Usha also stayed with Vance even though he defended a DOGE worker who posted about βnormalizing Indian hateβ. Which includes her, and their children.
I think itβs a risky bet to make - to give up everything for a white spouse. If they divorce you, then what are you left with?
It is extremely risky, both in terms of her survival and in terms of her children and what they will think of her!
Very interesting. Thank you.
I grew up with a violent narcissistic father. he denigrated my looks and intelligence.
I once worked at a company that fired all 5 women in upper management on the same day.
I give men a wide berth. I donβt play the game unless my life is in danger and that has happened.
We read Dworkin in college, and Susan Moller Okin. Iβm not sure what wave of feminism I belong to. I couldnβt wear pants to school in 3d grade. In Oregon.
The "waves" are different eras with different feminist theoretical approaches and thoughts. Third Wave started in around the 1990s..
Thank you for this! I too was previously wary of Dworkin for the same reasons youβve mentioned but as I get older and grapple with the failings of the third wave I found myself more and more drawn to her. Iβll definitely be looking for a copy of Right Wing Women next time Iβm in a bookshop.
Jo that was a horrible way for women you knew to respond to rape. When my h and I were dating I knew that when I disclosed the sexual abuse I experienced (which included rape), his reaction world determine if we had a future together. If he had responded in any way like those women he would have been gone. I learned that the hard way in my previous relationship. And yes re trans people. Thank you for your long post.
Something I've noticed is how the previous stereotype of conservative women which used to be very modest, covered up with minimal makeup has now shifted to something extremely feminine coded, pink, more revealing, a lot more makeup etc. It's something I struggle to wrap my head around because when I was a kid, that was more liberal coded.
Yes, because i think in the 90s and 2000s, conservative make up and clothes = conservative politics. Old money, Christian fundamentalism, Bush wives...
I grew in the bay area, and women here are dress more conservatively (little make up, conservative clothes, almost no one wears heels - for one, there are a lot of hills in San Francisco, and people walk a lot more). I can easily tell who the tourists or new in town are...
That is an interesting shift and more so because a number of religious groups still have the modesty rules yet that doesn't get in the way of this shift.
it's strange, that the religious right here in the US is so enthusiastic about a leader who is openly materialistic, has affairs, has been found liable for sexual abuse...
So many thoughts inspired by your article, but Iβm heading out for the day. Suffice it to say- thank you very much for your work and Iβm looking forward to reading more!
They think he is an instrument of God and it shows how God can can use anyone however imperfect and they themselves are sinners who can yet do God's work.
Yes, I think religion can be a force of good (peace, community), but too often, organized, hierarchical religion is used to manipulate and abuse.
Phenomenal. I just ordered all these books. I got divorced when I was 30. Your analysis resonates with my experience: only after I was divorced did my colleague start sexually harassing me.
Glad you enjoyed the essay!
I've been a sexual assault survivor advocate for about eight years, that observation is based on the reading but what I've seen through my advocacy/work too.
Ooh yesβ¦Iβve always been in the βbad rapβ camp for Dworkin. Gayle Rubinβs side of the sex wars always made a lot more sense to me. But your article here shows Dworkinβs strengths and lasting significance. Thinking through her ideas now is oddly cathartic! Likeβ¦fuck. It shouldnβt be. But it is!
I also read Dworkin's 'Woman Hating', which gets into the sex wars side. I personally didn't care for it nearly as much as I did 'Right Wing Women', which is about her stance on feminism. So I guess what I'm advocating for in this piece and the one before it to read Dworkin on feminism, and not on sexuality or pornography.
I think it is remarkable in that Dworkin was able to stand firm on her stance and yet have so much empathy for right wing/conservative women. Same for her fellow anti-pornography colleague, Catharine MacKinnon, who is perhaps the single greatest force on our legal thinking of sexual harassment.
I'm not a huge fan of Gayle Rubin (esp. around 'child porn panic') or the sex positivity movement - not that I think we should be 'sex negative' or anything! I just think that the sex+ movement isn't very honest with or about itself (and I live in San Francisco, which I feel is a big center for the movement).
Rubin definitely goes too far in the other direction! I just think she does an amazing job predicting some of the philosophical moves of queer theory by critiquing both second wave feminists and THE POPE in the same breath. Likeβ¦that was so visionary! And made so much sense. But yes. Youβre right. The stuff about nambla was super gross. I think it was rhetorical mostly, but at what cost??
Yes, I think that the earlier gay/lesbian movement in the era of Rubin, Harvey Milk, et al went really wrong with the defense of nambla/child porn, and the like. We (the broader LGBTQI+ spectrum) still have the "groomer" rhetoric to fight against, and I think that fight is a lot tougher for us because of that enormous misstep.
To say nothing about her position on smbd. As if there isnβt enough pain in the world. But women should have the absolute right as adults to follow their desires and take full responsibility for them.
Wow, this way so well written and gives me so much to think about!
I'm "glad" you enjoyed it!
I say "glad", but I'm sure reading about this stuff is important and interesting, but happiness isn't the feeling that prompts...
What an inspiring read! Thanks
Thank you. Interesting β read β. Different perspective. There is much in your article that I never understoodβ safety from rapeβ¦.. How much pro birth factors into right wing ideology. Thanks again.
I am "glad" you found value in the essay :)
Hi. There is so little we know about β anything β in life and we will not experience as much as we think we have. This is why we must read about the experiences of others. I found β balcony incident β as a cautionary tale for anyone who finds themselves with people who do not agree with them. Also explains why there are female branches of white nationalists organization. People think women naturally kindβbig mistake. Keep writing. Stories have value.
Agreed on reading to learn more about the world. And agree that women (nor men) are intrinsically and always "good".
Thank you.
I label them as the patriarchal women: women who support the patriarchy and male domination. My twenty something niece calls them βthe pick meβ women.
Both are true, but this women also includes more than just the "pick me" women - a lot of women opt for safety by aligning themselves with a male partner.
Agree.
Also for financial security.
Absolutely agree, especially if a couple has children together.